**UPDATED AGAIN** "The Whites Have Become Black" says David Starkey
- By Tracy Ames
- Published October 22, 2011
Tracy Ames
Mrs. Ames is an international bestselling author of interracial erotic fiction and a former columnist for several newsletters and magazines.
A native of the San Francisco Bay Area, Tracy currently split time between CT & New York City with her husband, children and a host of pets.
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Hiya folks!
I'd LOVE to hear your open, honest, and frank opinions of this conversation from the BBC.
This has become a hot topic with our families (okay, we're fighting!). I'll reserve my opinion for now. But I'd really like to hear what you think.
Dr. Starkey mentions Powell's "Rivers of Blood" speech. If you'd like to watch the documentary of this speech, click HERE. Let's just say it's an eye-opener.
Lurkers: Don't be afraid to jump in. We respect everyone's opinions...and their right to voice them. The IRE crowd is a gentle mix of cultures and races. We talk and debate without worry. Speak up. :)
*Throws up hands, walks away*
**UPDATE**
Oops! The initial post on Friday was taken down while Daniel and I worked on the back end. I didn't realize it was still offline until this morning...thanks J.J.!
For those of you who emailed your comments, they will be added to the thread as Anony. Look for them tomorrow evening...there's so many! Love you guys.
Oct. 24th: Still moving the comments over. I spent yesterday with Pam.
Due to the high number of comments sent to my email rather then this thread and time contraints, Emily will be editing them into a few mass, clipped posts instead on inddy post. Feel free to comment on the thread below.
I'd LOVE to hear your open, honest, and frank opinions of this conversation from the BBC.
This has become a hot topic with our families (okay, we're fighting!). I'll reserve my opinion for now. But I'd really like to hear what you think.
Dr. Starkey mentions Powell's "Rivers of Blood" speech. If you'd like to watch the documentary of this speech, click HERE. Let's just say it's an eye-opener.
Lurkers: Don't be afraid to jump in. We respect everyone's opinions...and their right to voice them. The IRE crowd is a gentle mix of cultures and races. We talk and debate without worry. Speak up. :)
*Throws up hands, walks away*
**UPDATE**
Oops! The initial post on Friday was taken down while Daniel and I worked on the back end. I didn't realize it was still offline until this morning...thanks J.J.!
For those of you who emailed your comments, they will be added to the thread as Anony. Look for them tomorrow evening...there's so many! Love you guys.
Oct. 24th: Still moving the comments over. I spent yesterday with Pam.
Due to the high number of comments sent to my email rather then this thread and time contraints, Emily will be editing them into a few mass, clipped posts instead on inddy post. Feel free to comment on the thread below.
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20 Responses to "**UPDATED AGAIN** "The Whites Have Become Black" says David Starkey"
said this on 22 Oct 2011 11:57:58 AM CDT
From a foreigner in the UK: Am I shocked by David’s opinion?!?!? Not at all. The UK today (I’m generalizing) is the USA in the 70’s. minorities are to blame for EVERYTHING that has gone wrong with the UK; from lack of family values and moral, loss of economical/financial stability, educational standards etc. as far as the rioters the majority were young white male, but that depended on what western news broadcast you watched.
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said this on 22 Oct 2011 1:29:24 PM CDT
we all have seen how hi hop/rap has influenced the way some may talk and dress but to point the finger and shoulder the responsibility of the downfall of a society on a race.... smh
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said this on 22 Oct 2011 10:03:13 PM CDT
At just a minute and a half in, I feel the need to stop the video and correct the recorded man on something. The language of gang violence has never been racially exclusive. Even in terms of recent history, a language of short-sided, un-educated and under-educated violence has been one of the great ethnic equalizers.
The Dead Rabbits and the "Natives" in early New York (okay, Gangs of New York isn't entirely accurate, but those gangs did exist, and it did list off general categories thereof). Oh, let's not forget the gangs that are explicitly racist as opposed to just incidentally so. From KKK to Neonazis to skinheads... need I go on? So, "the whites have become black" fails on his first premise. I steel myself and go further. At about six minutes in, my next comment. Then he goes in on rap. First, let me say that I'm not a big fan of rap. It's not my cup of tea. Then again, I'm not generally into music. That said, even I can tell you that rap originated as a subversion of violence. Look at any category of music and you'll find all the same themes that I constantly hear people complaining about in rap. This, by the way, includes friggin' minstril songs. Don't tell me that, around the early campfires of humanity, you didn't have a few storytellers that told stories of their own great hunts and managed to sneak in lyrics to speak of their own stamina, virility, and how all the women want to bare their kinder. Is there self-congratulation and violence in rap? Is it easier to convince recording company to record a song of self-congratulation and violence than it is to convince them that a song about getting an education and living a long and humble life will sell well? Maybe there's a corelation. Now at nine minutes twenty seconds and I'm catching the line "this type of black male culture militates against education." Name me any populist or feux populist movement that doesn't have a problem with being anti-intellectual. Here in America, most of our self-idenitified ethnic groups have a large anti-intellectual, and therefore anti-education mindset. In this day and age, that's best exemplified by the Tea Party, which doesn't present much ethnic diversity beyond Southern. In fact, most of American history has an anti-intellectual mythology, including mainly uneducated "down home common sense" or "street smarts" outwitting and generally being better than people who have taken any time to study something. Okay, I've finished this off and I don't feel any better a person for it. But, I'm going to make an analogy of this guy's culturally self-serving attitude to something I deal with as an atheist. (Disclaimor, I'm not saying that any other part of the issue is analogous, just and only this guy's attitude.) I can barely mention the fact that I'm an atheist without people bringing up Pol Pot, Stalin, and Mousellini as examples of how evil atheism is and how having a faith makes people good. Like our friend the... person, they're ignoring the beam in their own cultural eye in order to point out the mote in mine. We humans have a tendancy to be blind to our own cultural flaws. After all, our own culture isn't so easily viewed as something we can affect. It's something we're in, like our hometown. Look at a different town and you're going to see the flaws that you missed in your own. Look at someone else and you're more likely to notice their flaws than you are to notice the exact same flaws in yourself. And, this... person is rather comfortable within his culture which, when he thinks of it as culture at all, he probably thinks of in terms of the high culture of Shakespear and Chaucer. So, when he looks to another culture, isn't noticing that it's exactly the same culture he's been dealing with. Did anybody actually think that riots didn't happen in Brittain before we Americans had our little revolution? And don't think he gets out of those riots just for being an educated upper class Brit. The upper class, throughout Brittish history, have had riots in the traditional ruling class method, by forcing lower class members to do the fighting and dieing for them in wars. So, yeah, I think I've got an idea of the mindset he's coming from. But, it's one of those mindsets that, by this day and age, we, as a species, are at least supposed to recognize as an internal red flag. When we catch ourselves thinking like that, we're supposed to stop and say "Okay, what I just thought was stupid, let me see if I can find out where." We're not supposed to spout it out as though it was well considered cultural criticism. |
said this on 22 Oct 2011 10:23:55 PM CDT
I watched the video three times because I had to make sure that I heard the other points of view because David interrupted the others so much that they were not able to give complete thoughts. Moreover, he stated that white have taking on black culture through their speech.
What I notice is that David blamed everything that is wrong or has gone wrong in the UK on minorities. But in this day and time hip/hop is a major influence but it is up to the parents to enforce the social norms. I tell you what I am glad that I am a Southern Belle and I grew up in the south where the blame was not pointed at a race per say but you knew/know where each group(black/white) stood. |
said this on 23 Oct 2011 12:06:52 PM CDT
Wow WB! Excellent points! You've nailed it!
This is such a hot topic and I'm at a loss, words fail me. Lol! I guess I'll start with how disturbing I found his argument not so much his comments (don't know if that makes sense). I “get” what he’s saying about hip hop (some rap music does glorify, materialism and violence) HOWEVER to insinuate that rap culture IS Black culture is completely wrong! As Judy said yes it can be very influential, but to place the blame for the downfall of a society on ONE group of people is bogus! It’s unfortunate really because here is a well educated man spewing this nonsense. According to him, Black culture embodies, uneducated, violent and dishonorable individuals. I just love how he argues that Blacks are the dark forces tainting pure White culture. |
said this on 23 Oct 2011 12:24:56 PM CDT
I was put off by Starkey’s David Lammy comment also. If you didn’t see him you would think he’s white? Seriously?! Sadly this is not the first time I’ve heard this!
Dreda Say Mitchell said it best “Black communities are not homogenous groups” There are Black CULTURES, plural!! So yes I understand that there’s a large number of uneducated or under educated Blacks BUT that does not encompass us all! |
said this on 24 Oct 2011 11:33:14 AM CDT
Agree, black people are not a monolith, BUT, we tend NOT to speak out against the harms being done to our communities by our own, eg, out of wedlock children from multiple partners, high HIV/AIDS/STDs rates, colourism, gang culture. In my opinion, we're collectively to blame for how we're being viewed by others, by virtue of not clearly distancing ourselves from certain negative influences and lack of economic power to buy said virtue.
Hope I'm making sense, as English has become a third language to me. |
said this on 24 Oct 2011 5:06:25 PM CDT
cccH your comment did made sense and I applaud you for your honesty but blacks society is not the only one with the above stated problems; I do think the media helps portray a negative picture among blacks (and of course we ourselves are not blame-free)
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said this on 23 Oct 2011 9:57:34 PM CDT
OMG!. I normally do not make comments of a political nature, My father told me to keep my opinion of political and religious views to myself because those two subjects make people lose their minds. I was just browsing my computer and stopped at this site because it always has something interesting to share.
I think that I am going to have to pay more attention to what is going on in other parts of the world. I had no idea that England had such racial tensions going on over there. I was under the impression that they had less than the US. After listening to the speech "River Of Blood" I remembered from my history class when I was going for my Master in Psychology that after WW2 that the United States limited the number of Jewish immigrants that were allowed in to the country, so I dont think that racial prejudice ever goes away. It just seems to change with the times which nationality is the cause of all the problems that a country might be facing at the time. I think that some people forget that every person no matter their nationality all they want is for their family to be safe and to be able to provide for them. I grew up in NYC in a Jewish, Black,Italian neigborhood in Queens, joined the Navy when I was 21 and realized that we were so shelted living as we did. I raised my children to not judge a person by the color of their skin but by their actions and their heart that is what is important to me. When I hear a speech or watch television and see peple making ignorant statements I realize how far we still have to go. |
said this on 24 Oct 2011 3:26:13 AM CDT
Thanks Tracey. I've deleted all of my David Starkey lectures from class.
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said this on 24 Oct 2011 3:39:23 AM CDT
I'm British and can't figure out why everyone is shocked by his comments? His views have always been off-colour. He called Scotland, Ireland and Wales "feeble little countries". Wiki it.
Dr. Starkey is one of our best exports however Michael Wood is a better historian because he doesn't taint the facts with his opinions, and he treats his grad students like adults rather than pack mules. Not all Brits share his views. |
said this on 24 Oct 2011 4:12:11 AM CDT
"This type of black male culture militates against education." I was put off by his other arguments but as a black, educated man this line cut deep. Like Vicki, I had to listen to it a few times because surely he didn't say that in 2011.
@WB, I agree with your points especially when mentioned we humans have a tendancy to be blind to our own cultural flaws. We do. All cultures shift. Black culture has done no less. We made our mistakes, why haven't we been forgiven? The British were forgiven for the slave trade. The Germans were forgiven for the treatment of Jews. The French, Russians, Italian, and Dutch atrocities reshaped humanity. Ice-T wrote "Cop Killer" and we're the bad guys. |
said this on 24 Oct 2011 11:18:30 AM CDT
Isn't it true though that black lower class men tend to be more blindly violent? I understand where Dr. Starkey is going with his theory. I agree with him too that with the globalisation of the US rap culture, young black poor people in England have gotten even more aggressive in their behaviours. In recent years there have been killings of teenagers done by young gang members as initiation rites. It sounds horribly racist, I know, but this is because, like Dr. Starkey responds, we're not honestly talking about the issues, rather keeping on patting certain black people on the back and continuing their victimisation.
@ Antonio: Nope, the Germans are still not forgiven for their "treatment of the Jews". It's like every year Hollywood spouts out at least 2 films about the Holocaust, least we forget!. I know of not one German who can or will openly speak about the Holocaust without feeling guilty as fuck as if they, in 2011 were the actual murderers and not (some of) their ancestors. See, it's called economic power. THAT'S what the Jews have. |
said this on 25 Oct 2011 6:04:44 AM CDT
Ok, that is a blind generalization. I am assuming you believe this because of what you have seen on the news. That would be like me saying all Asians are great in math. Blindly violent, I really need you to be more specific. Do you mean they are violent for the sake of violence or are you assuming they enjoy violence?
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said this on 29 Oct 2011 9:51:01 AM CDT
Hi monique32,
I don't know if I believe this completely, but facts and the evidence that prove these facts can't be denied. Grant you, there were a mixture of races rioting in England, but most of them were young lower class black males(and some females) who appeared greedy, materialistic and willing to sate this through violent destruction of their environment. I'm sure if you were to survey what kind of background these young black Brits came from, it would reveal: single young overwhelmed mothers, absentee fathers, who repeat a destructive cycle of getting pregnant because the dole supports each child she births. I can only imagine what it must be like growing up in such an environment, hence my question, really, and my understanding of where Dr. Starkey could possibly base his very stark analysis on. We really need to discuss the issues (and find solutions) that are affecting black communities the world over without taking offence. To not do so will definitely leave us behind in this globalisation of our world. |
said this on 02 Nov 2011 5:41:23 PM CDT
I am not offended, but I do believe that we have a tendency to be shown the worst of most things when it comes to the media. I don't believe that all lower income black men are blindly violent. I think it may be a more of a case of responding to your environment. Now I am not an eXpert because 1. I am not a man and 2. I grew up in an upper middle class home. My dad's an exec for Halliburton and my mom is an accountant. You're absolutely right we do need to look at the situation and find solutions that have a real world application. I just don't know how you would do that. I have been to Great Britain twice and I found that there is a great divide among different races. Do you know what percentage of the population is of African descent in G.B.?
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said this on 08 Nov 2011 3:43:16 PM CDT
I don't find people dumb enough though to believe the media, at least not where I'm living. Talk with non-blacks around you and you'd be amazed how they can separate the BS. I do tend to think though that black Americans spend way too much time watching the telly, reading gossip rags and blogs and worse of all being influenced by them. I'm basing this opinion, mind, on when I visit back home with family and friends, and some I/R blogs I peruse.
As for the black population in Britain, could it be around 3%?. I'm not living there even if I come across as I know what's going on, but I have lived there for nearly 2yrs prior to moving to where I am now, which is 11/2 hrs by plane away. The only divide I've noticed in England is mostly by class. Neighbourhoods are not self segregated by race like in the US. The African Brits though are considered ways more industrious and educated than Caribbean Brits(rightly so, as their families are very much together and old school, which is unfortunately changing I've heard), who made up the bulk of those young (black) rioters. The personal survey I've carried out concerning the amount of black(male AND female) expat Brits working here for one of the biggest banks in the world supports this. They're well liked because of their education combined with work ethics and totally sought after by headhunters. Agree it's a case of responding to your environment, but this does support my opinion that it's mostly lower class people, no?. "Lashing out" is ok in the form of demonstrating, but these people viciously destroyed their neighbourhoods and stole property out of materialism. That's criminal. Period. Unlike you and Tracy, I grew up poor (if I told you the part of PA I grew up in, you'd be shocked, especially since we're really simple island people) when my family moved to the US and only know wealth since I married into it. Suffice to say my siblings and I never thought of such destructive behaviour but then, we may have been financially poor, but rich in love and togetherness. That's what I'm missing in the black Western societies today. Sad indeed!. |
said this on 25 Oct 2011 12:48:16 PM CDT
Firstt of this guy probally has never even listen to hip hop music and has never even a hip hop artist. I'm not even sure he ever meet a black person. So he should makegenrealizations about something he doesn't even understand. I am so sick of comments about a black person not sounding black. WTF is that suppose to mean? That being black means i'm suppose to speak ebonics at all times and sound uneducated? That only white people are allowed to speak articulate and sound professional and educated. Also I think that he should understand it's not so much black culture but more youth culture that emabraces violence. It's more the younger gentration black and white that tend to feed into gang mentality.
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said this on 25 Oct 2011 4:26:50 PM CDT
my mind is blown right now....
This all clearly comes from what this mans perception of what "black" is. Clearly being educated or being above savages does not encapsulate his belief of what being black is. To him 'black" is only negative hip hop culture, low income project living, high school drop outs, pregnant teens, gang violence, and improper speech. By his definition it is entirely true to say that white has become black; as all these negative images are prevalent in "white" culture (furthermore in red, brown, and yellow culture which I guess by his perception must be "black" at this point as well.) My mind is blown right now there is so much to comment on here. |
said this on 12 Nov 2011 10:14:09 AM CDT
Sorry Trace... I lost interest after you said BBC lol. I think the HBO series "Rome" was the only thing they ever produced worth watching.
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